人工智能能助力缩小教育差距吗？萨尔·可汗表示赞同 | 盖茨播客
My latest podcast is all about learning something new.
What do you do when you can’t solve a problem? I like to talk to smart people who can help me understand the subject better. I call this process “getting unconfused”—and I think it is one of the best ways to learn something new. In my new podcast, I try to get unconfused about some of the things that fascinate me.
我的最新播客专注于探讨学习新事物的过程。
当遇到难题难以解决时，你会怎么办？我喜欢与那些聪明的人交流，借助他们的帮助来更好地理解问题。我将这个过程称之为“解惑”，我认为这是学习新事物最好的途径之一。在我的新播客中，我尝试通过与专业人士的交流来消除自己对一些令我着迷的课题的困惑。
收听本期播客音频，请点击播放按钮
Sal Khan is a true pioneer of harnessing the power of technology to help kids learn. So, when I wanted to learn more about how artificial intelligence will transform education, I knew I had to talk to the founder of Khan Academy. I loved chatting with Sal about why tutoring is so important, how his new service Khanmigo is making the most of ChatGPT, and how we can keep teachers at the center of the classroom in the age of AI. We even found time to talk about our favorite teachers and the subject we wish we’d studied in school.
萨尔·可汗是利用科技力量帮助孩子学习的真正的倡导者。因此，当我想更多地了解人工智能将如何改变教育时，我知道我一定要和可汗学院的创始人聊一聊。我很乐于和萨尔聊学习辅导为什么特别重要，他的新服务Khanmigo如何充分利用ChatGPT，以及我们如何在人工智能时代保持教师在课堂上的核心地位。我们还找时间谈了谈我们最喜欢的老师和我们希望在学校学习的科目。
以下为播客文本
SHOW TEASER:
SAL KHAN: I started getting a few goosebumps. And then I said, “Ask ChatGPT why that’s the answer.”
BILL GATES: mmm.
SAL KHAN: It explained it!
BILL GATES: Oh yeah, that’s...it’s so good at that!
[MUSIC]
节目预告：
萨尔·可汗：我都开始起鸡皮疙瘩了。然后我说，“问一下ChatGPT为什么答案就是它。”
比尔·盖茨：嗯……
萨尔·可汗：ChatGPT解释出来了！
比尔·盖茨：可不是吗，它真的很擅长这个。
【音乐】
SHOW OPEN:
BILL GATES: I had great teachers that I’ve learned from. I had a librarian at my elementary school. I have a great tennis coach. And, you know, the best way to get unconfused about something is to find somebody who really deeply understands it.
And I call that, getting unconfused.
[MUSIC]
Welcome to Unconfuse Me. I’m Bill Gates.
[MUSIC]
节目开始：
比尔·盖茨：我有很多优秀的老师教导过我。我小学时有一位不错的图书管理员，我还有一位很棒的网球教练。而且，你知道的，消除对某事的困惑最好的方法就是找到一个真正深刻理解它的人。
这就是我所说的“解惑”。
【音乐】
欢迎来到《给自己解惑》。我是比尔·盖茨。
【音乐】
BILL GATES: The role of technology in education isn’t always obvious, but the potential and the possibilities are inspiring. When I would talk to people about loving to learn on the internet, and it was just at the point where putting up videos was kind of getting mainstream, in about 2010, and people said, "Wow, you’ve got to use Khan Academy."
My guest today is a teacher. He’s CEO of Khan Academy. Sal Khan.
Khan Academy is an amazing tool,
I was so impressed that Sal was able to teach such a broad range of subjects himself in the early days.
Khan Academy’s got 140 million users. A lot of students have benefited.
So, I’m excited to have him here today. Welcome, Sal.
比尔·盖茨：科技在教育中发挥的作用并不总是显而易见的，但其潜力和可能性却令人振奋。我曾经和别人说过我喜欢网上学习，那是在上传视频才刚刚变得主流的年代，大约在2010年，他们说，“哇，你一定要用一用可汗学院。”
今天我的嘉宾是一位老师。他是可汗学院的CEO。萨尔·可汗。
可汗学院是一个很棒的工具。
我对于萨尔在早年间能亲自教授这么多科目有着深刻的印象。
可汗学院拥有1.4亿用户。许多学生从中受益。
所以，我很高兴今天能邀请到他。欢迎你，萨尔。
SAL KHAN: Thanks for having me.
萨尔·可汗：感谢你的邀请。
BILL GATES: Well, to start, I found out when you were younger, you were a singer in a heavy metal band and a cartoonist for the school paper. So which is the better skill, drawing or singing?
比尔·盖茨：让我们开始吧，我发现你年轻时是一支重金属乐队的歌手，还为校报画卡通。那么，哪一门艺术更好？是绘画还是唱歌呢？
SAL KHAN: Depends what you’re trying to do, but I’ll say drawing.
萨尔·可汗：这取决于你想要做什么，我会说是绘画。
BILL GATES: Yeah, well, in your lectures, you do have to draw stuff.
比尔·盖茨：确实，在课堂上你得画板书。
SAL KHAN: Oh, yeah.
萨尔·可汗：是这样的。
BILL GATES: And it’s nice -- you erase a bunch of times if you don’t like what you did.
比尔·盖茨：而且绘画很棒的一点是，如果你不喜欢自己画的东西，你可以多次擦除重来。
SAL KHAN: So every now and then, if you watch enough of the videos, I try to flex my art a little bit. Sal can draw a cartoon. Sal can do a little bit of shading and cross stitch and all of that. No, I definitely -- when I was a kid, I would just draw for hours. And you know, now I realize, yeah, it does give you a certain, like, one, you never get bored. And it does, I think, build a certain curiosity and creativity just drawing all day.
萨尔·可汗：所以每隔一段时间，如果你看了足够多的视频的话你就会知道，我会稍微展示一下我的艺术天赋。“萨尔会画漫画”，“萨尔会画一点阴影和做十字绣之类的东西”。确实——小的时候，我一画就是几个小时。你知道吗，现在我意识到，没错，绘画确实给了你某种感觉——你永远不会感到无聊。而且我觉得整天画画能培养好奇心和创造力。
BILL GATES: Well, Sal, remind us how you got into all of this. I think you were at a hedge fund at one point.
比尔·盖茨：那么，萨尔，再给我讲讲你是怎么开始这一切的。我记得你有段时间好像在一家对冲基金工作。
SAL KHAN: Yeah. You go back to 2004. I was -- my original background was in tech, but I go to business school, I go into finance. I was an analyst at a hedge fund in Boston.
萨尔·可汗：是的，回到2004年。我最初的背景是技术，但我上了商学院，进了金融行业。我当时是波士顿一家对冲基金的分析师。
And I had just gotten married, family visiting me from New Orleans, which is where I was born and raised. And I just came out of a conversation with my 12-year-old cousin, Nadia, who was having trouble with math. I said, "Hey, Nadia, when you go back to New Orleans, I’m happy to tutor you." She agreed, started tutoring her after work every day. And long story short, that made a difference. It went from her being a weak math student or perceiving herself to be a weak math student to being a very strong one. Started tutoring her brothers. Word spreads in my family, free tutoring is going on. Before I know it, I’m tutoring 10, 15 cousins.
那时我刚结婚，家人从新奥尔良来看我，那是我出生和长大的地方。我和我12岁的表妹纳迪娅聊完天，她学数学遇到了困难。我说，“嘿，纳迪娅，你回新奥尔良后，我很乐意辅导你。”她同意了，我开始每天下班后辅导她。长话短说，这给她带来了改变。她从一名数学很差的学生，或者自认为数学很差的学生，变成了一名数学成绩很好的学生。我开始辅导她的兄弟们。家里人一传十，十传百，免费辅导开始了。不知不觉，我辅导了10个、15个表亲。
By 2009, there were a couple of almost 100,000 folks who were using it back then. That’s when I took the plunge, set it up as a not-for-profit, admission-free, world-class education for anyone, anywhere.
到了2009年，那时已经有近10万人在使用可汗学院了。那时候，我果断决定，将其建立为一个非盈利平台，免费向全球任何地方的人提供世界一流的教育。
BILL GATES: And then it spread.
比尔·盖茨：然后它就传播开来了。
SAL KHAN: Oh yeah, a lot of the vision of Khan Academy in the early days, yes, there was an accessibility piece of it. Yeah, we can make videos! We can share it with everyone. But the pedagogical aspect wasn’t just access. It was that people could finally leverage technology to learn at their own pace. If you only got a 70% or 80% on some concept, the class doesn’t need to move on to the next one and build on that gap. The student should be allowed to work on that. If you just let people have a strong foundation, the next few layers in math come pretty easy. With a weak foundation, no matter how bright or hardworking you are, they’re very, very difficult.
萨尔·可汗：是的，可汗学院早期愿景都是针对“可及性”这个方面的。我们可以制作视频！我们可以与所有人分享。但教育不仅仅是获取一个渠道。它是让人们最终能够利用技术按照自己的节奏学习。如果你在某个概念上只弄懂了百分之七八十，这堂课也不会直接翻篇，你也不必在跟不上的情况下学习下一个内容。可汗学院应该允许学生在掉队的地方下功夫。如果让学生打下坚实的基础，接下来的数学学习就会变得非常容易。如果基础薄弱，无论你多么聪明或勤奋，都会非常非常困难。
So that was thesis. I think over the last 10 years on this journey, we’ve got a ton of efficacy studies in different contexts, different countries, and they all kind of say the same story, that if students engage, let’s call it 30 to 60 minutes a week, even that -- what I would call fairly low level of engagement, they’re growing pretty dramatically, 20-30% more than expected, or in some cases more.
这就是故事的梗概。我认为，在过去的10年中，我们在不同的环境、不同的国家进行了大量的效能研究，这些研究都在讲述同一件事：如果学生使用可汗学院，即便每周只有30到60分钟——我称之为相当低水平的参与，他们的成长也相当显著，比预期高出百分之二三十，在某些情况下更高。
BILL GATES: Amazing.
比尔·盖茨：太棒了。
SAL KHAN: And so I think the question over the next couple of years is: How do we get more students to engage at that level?
萨尔·可汗：所以，接下来几年，我一直都在想这个问题：我们该如何让更多学生这样参与进来？
BILL GATES: Yeah, I think that challenge, a lot of our conversations have been on that your tools are a miracle for the 10-to -15% most motivated. But then, how do we draw in that other 85%? And I do think in the last year or two, as you’ve engaged with teachers and districts, we’re starting to see that it can be a tool basically for all students.
比尔·盖茨：的确，我认为这是一个挑战，我们的很多讨论都在提及你的工具对于最积极主动的那10%到15%人来说是一个奇迹。但是，我们如何吸引其他85%的人呢？我认为，在过去的一两年里，随着你们开始与教师和学区合作，我们逐渐发现，基本上所有学生都可以把它当作一种工具来使用。
SAL KHAN: That’s the goal. But to your point, I actually think 80, 90% of -- hopefully, 100% of students, if they’re able to engage in the right way, especially if you catch them early, they can have that foundation. I think the main issue is just a lot of kids, frankly, just check out by the time they’re in middle school.
萨尔·可汗：这正是我们的目标。就像你说的，我实际上希望是80%、90%——甚至100%的学生，如果他们能以正确的方式参与，尤其是在小学时期，他们就可以打好那个基础。我认为主要问题是很多孩子，坦白地说，到了中学时他们已经失去了学习兴趣。
BILL GATES: So in learning, you’ve got the classroom environment, you can use that time in a certain way; and you’ve got whatever time you get with a student where they’re kind of by themselves and assume they have a device. How do you see the time in the classroom? Is the availability of your tools shifting what people do in the classroom? And do they use it real time in the classroom?
比尔·盖茨：那么，在学习方面，你有课堂环境，你可以随意使用这段时间，你拥有了学生们自己在家的时间，你假设他们有设备上网。你如何看待真正课堂中上课的时间？你觉得你们的工具改变了课堂上人们会做的事吗？他们会不会在课堂上实时使用可汗学院？
SAL KHAN: We were all starting 10 years ago, 12 years ago, it was only more affluent school districts that would have 1-to-1 laptops. The rest of them had to share, the good thing is over the last 10 years, because of E-Rate, a lot of that’s been addressed. It’s unusual now to see a school where you don’t have 1-to-1 laptops in, say, a math class. And so, yeah, all the students will take out the laptops and do 20 minutes while the teacher walks around. They’ll take 10 kids aside, do a focused intervention with them, do a worked example with them. The other 20 keep working, then they’ll take another 10 aside.
萨尔·可汗：在10年前、12年前，只有更富裕的学区才会拥有1对1的笔记本电脑。其他地方不得不共用，好处是在过去的10年里，由于“E-Rate”计划（译注：美国的一项支持教育信息化发展的政策，称为“教育信息服务折扣政策”）的推动，这种情况得到了很大的改善。现在在学校里没有个人笔记本电脑的情况已经很不寻常了，比如在数学课上。没错，所有的学生都会拿出笔记本电脑，在老师巡视时做20分钟的练习。老师会从中选出10名学生，对他们进行有针对性的干预，与他们一起进行实例操作。其他的20名学生继续学习，然后他们会再选出另外10名学生。
But when they do that consistently, it makes a huge difference.
当他们坚持这样做时，就会产生巨大的改变。
And then for the students who either need gap filling or the students who are ready to race ahead, they can do so. That’s what they really like about Khan Academy. Not only do you get that practice and feedback in the moment, but the kids who want to race ahead can and the kids who need to do some gap filling can too.
那些需要查漏补缺的学生，或者已经准备好超前学习的学生，他们就能做自己想做的事。这就是他们真正喜欢可汗学院的原因。你不仅能在当下获得练习和反馈，而且想拔尖的孩子可以拔尖，需要补缺的孩子也可以补缺。
BILL GATES: And the dashboard that helps the teacher see the status of all the students, that’s a Khan Academy thing that the teacher account gives them a really clear indication of what’s going on.
比尔·盖茨：还有一个“仪表盘”界面可以帮助老师看到所有学生的状态，这是可汗学院的一个特色，老师可以通过它清楚地了解学生的学习情况。
SAL KHAN: Yeah. I mean, we all remember growing up in a classroom, that the only time of real measurement is at the end of the unit, and then you get the test, the test is graded, you get a 90%. I get an 80%. All right. Let’s move on. No one even attempts to improve that.
萨尔·可汗：是的，我是说，我们都记得在教室里上课是什么样的，唯一一次真正的学习评估是在课程单元结束时，紧接着是考试，试卷被老师评分，你得到90分，我得了80分。好吧，我们继续下面的课。甚至没有人试图改进这一模式。
And so what we realize is that now with tools like Khan Academy, you can give real-time information. Well, you can give real-time feedback to the student, but you can also give real-time information to the teacher so that they can intervene, and they can do things. I hope in the future that that practice is the assessment, that you don’t even have to take separate assessments. But yeah, the idea is let’s give the teachers real-time information; let’s not wait until it’s too late.
我们意识到，现在有了可汗学院这样的工具，你可以提供实时信息。你可以向学生提供实时反馈，也可以向老师提供实时信息，这样他们就可以进行干预，做一些事情。我希望在未来，学习评估成为主流，甚至不用再单独考试。我们的想法是让教师获得实时信息，不要等到为时已晚才行动。
BILL GATES: Let’s talk about AI. You and I have both been lucky enough over the last six months or so to have engagement with the mix of both Microsoft and OpenAI and have early access. And I remember some of the best examples of how to get the AI to do fun things, where, when you came up and saw me and we were brainstorming about this, you were the one who said, "Hey, if you tell it to write a speech like various politicians, including Trump and others," that it’s stunning how it captures the voice of different people. So give us the how you first were using the AI, and then this is super timely because you’ve just recently come out with the Khanmigo, if I’m saying that right.
比尔·盖茨：让我们来谈谈人工智能。在过去六个月左右的时间里，你和我都很幸运地参与了微软和OpenAI的合作，并获得了提前体验的机会。我还记得一些最好的例子，展示如何让人工智能做有趣的事情，当你走过来看到我，我们为此集思广益时，是你说，“嘿，让它像各种政客（包括特朗普和其他人）那样写一篇演讲稿。”它能捕捉到不同人的声音，真是令人惊叹。所以，请给我们介绍一下你们最初是如何运用人工智能的，恰如其时地，你们最近刚刚推出了Khanmigo，如果我没念错的话。
SAL KHAN: That’s right. Very good. Yeah. I mean, the OpenAI folks reached out. And they said, "Hey, we’re a couple of weeks away from having the first training of our model." And they wanted to reach out to Khan Academy for two reasons. One was they said we want to make this really good at AP biology, and I only found out later -- I don’t know if this is true. They told me you gave them the challenge.
萨尔·可汗：你念的对。没错，OpenAI的人联系了我，他们说，“嘿，还有几周就要首次训练我们的模型了。”他们想联系可汗学院有两个原因。一个原因是他们说，想让它在AP（美国大学先修课程）生物学课程中大显身手，我后来才知道——我不知道这是不是真的。他们告诉我是你向他们发起了挑战。
BILL GATES: That’s right. In June, they kept showing me this thing, and I was like, "Yeah, it’s kind of an idiot savant. I don’t think it’s practical. Why don’t you see if it can do the AP biology exam. And I’m not going to pay any attention until you can like get a 5." And I thought, "Okay, that’ll give me three years to work on HIV and malaria and these guys." And then it was so bizarre because Sam Altman and Greg Brockman in late August said, "Hey, we want to come show you this thing." And so it was early September when there were like 30 people at my house. And I’ve said it’s the most stunning demo I’ve ever seen in my life.
比尔·盖茨：没错，六月份的时候，他们一直给我看这个东西，我就想，“是啊，这有点像个白痴天才。看着挺好但不实用，为什么不看看它能不能应付AP生物考试呢？除非它能得5分，否则我是不会理它的。”我想，“反正我最起码有三年时间来研究艾滋病、疟疾和类似的事请。”然后事情就变得很诡异了，因为山姆·阿尔特曼和格雷格·布洛克曼在八月底的时候说，“嘿，我们想给你看看这个。”到了九月初，我家来了三十多个人。这是我这辈子见过的最棒的演示。
I mean, right up there with seeing the Xerox PARC Graphics user interface that set the agenda for Microsoft for about 15 years. This demo was so surprising to me, the emergent depth that as they scaled up the training set, its fluency, and you have to say understanding, that computers could not read in the sense humans do, and it couldn’t write in the sense humans do. And now, with lots of footnotes about hallucination and things like that. But I’m still personally in a state of shock at wow, it is so good. And okay, therefore, let’s see where we can put it to good use.
我的意思是，就像看到施乐帕洛阿尔托研究中心的图形用户界面（译注：美国施乐公司开发出来的一种图形用户界面）一样，它为微软定下了长达15年的发展议程。这个人工智能样品演示让我大吃一惊，随着训练集的扩大，必须承认，它的流畅度和理解力也越来越高，尽管计算机无法像人类一样阅读，也无法像人类一样写作。并且，现在还有很多关于“人工智能幻觉”之类的小插曲。但我个人还是很震惊，哇，这太棒了。好吧，那就看看我们能把它用在什么地方。
SAL KHAN: Yeah, 100%. And so thank you for that challenge to them. I think that helped. They came to us because we have a large library of AP biology questions, etc. They’re like, "Hey, can we use that to either evaluate or train?" And at the time I was like, "Well, what’s in it for Khan Academy?" You know, I’m in it. And they’re like, "Well, maybe you get access to the model." And I, too, was skeptical. I had seen GPT-3 at that point, and it was cool, but it wasn’t -- I don’t see how we were going to apply it.
萨尔·可汗：是的，百分之百的。谢谢你向他们发起的挑战。我认为这很有帮助。他们来找我们，是因为我们有一个庞大的AP生物试题库。他们说，“嘿，我们能用它来评估或培训吗？”当时我就想，“这对可汗学院有什么好处？”你知道，我要对它负责。他们就说，“也许你会接触到这个人工智能模型。”我对此持怀疑态度，当时我已经看过GPT-3模型，人工智能很酷，但我不知道我们该如何应用它。
Two weeks later, they showed us the AP bio question and said, "So Sal, what’s the answer to this?" And I read it. I was like, "Okay, I think it’s C." And it said, "Oh, the answer is C," and I was like, "Oh, that’s interesting." I started getting a few goosebumps. And then I said, "Well, ask it why that’s the answer." It explained it.
两周后，他们给我们看了AP生物试题，然后说，“萨尔，这道题的答案是什么？”我读了题，心想，“好吧，我觉得是C。”然后人工智能说，“哦，答案是C。”我就想，“哇哦，真有趣。”我的鸡皮疙瘩都起来了，然后我说，“好吧，问问它为什么答案C。”它就解释出来了。
BILL GATES: Oh, yeah, that’s -- it’s so good at that.
比尔·盖茨：哦，是的，它很擅长于此。
SAL KHAN: Oh, yeah. And I mean, I think what folks need to realize -- because everyone had that moment with ChatGPT, but this was -- it was like that but more because GPT-4 is even better.
萨尔·可汗：是的。我的意思是，我认为大家需要认识到的是——每个人都有过觉得ChatGPT很厉害的时刻，但这次更夸张，然而GPT-4甚至更厉害。
BILL GATES: Way better.
比尔·盖茨：厉害太多了。
SAL KHAN: And I said, "Can you say why the other answers aren’t correct?" Did it. Then I said -- then I started, like I’m almost shaking. Then I said, "Can you write 10 more questions like this?" Bam, bam, bam. And the first 10 I saw were all pretty good. Like, I just, I’m like, no. I’m like, "Yep, yep, yep, yep. That’s all legit." And then the implications for Khan Academy started to go through my mind.
萨尔·可汗：我说：“你能说出其他答案不正确的原因吗？”它做到了，我都开始发抖了。然后我说：“你能再写10道这样的题吗？”咣当，咣当，咣当。我看到的前10个问题都很不错。就像，我想：“完全没错，这些问题没毛病。”然后我开始思考这对可汗学院的潜在影响。
And then we did start to get into some of its hallucinations and some of its math errors in those early days. But that weekend, they gave me and our chief learning officer access on Slack, and we just -- like I couldn’t sleep, I was just having these "in the rabbit hole" conversations with it. And then we had a hackathon for our team. We got about 40 people on our team under NDA, and we said like just come up with stuff. We were having the debates that everyone was having around, well, the information is not 100% airtight. The math isn’t great right now. The costs are not trivial. It can introduce bias. What’s the safety? Can you -- how can you use the use of people’s information, etc.?
在早期，我们确实开始陷入了它的一些“人工智能幻觉”和数学错误之中。但那个周末，他们给了我和我们的首席学习官访问Slack的权限，我无法入睡，一直在和它进行“兔子洞”式的对话，我们团队开始了一场黑客马拉松。我们有大约40人，签署了保密协议，开始提出各种想法。我们进行着所有人都参与的大辩论，这些议题包括：信息并非百分之百确凿无疑、数学算法现在还不够完善、成本并不低、人工智能可能会被引入偏见、安全性如何、人们能如何使用个人信息等等。
But then we were starting to get it to work well as something that helps you answer questions while you’re watching a video, to work well as a tutor.
后来，我们开始让人工智能在观看视频时帮助用户回答问题，发挥一个好家教的作用。
And then every -- honestly, every 10 minutes we thought about it like, wait, it could also do this. It could also do that. It can also do that. And so we said, "Well, what if we could make it so you could talk to any historical character? What if you could make it so it gets into a debate with you? What if you could make it so it doesn’t write your paper, but it writes it with you? What if it could do lesson plans for teachers?" It could be the end of static curricula. I mean, just the imagination kept going.
我们几乎每隔10分钟就会想，人工智能还可以做这个，还可以做那个。于是我们说，“如果我们能让人工智能和任何历史人物对话呢？如果能让它与你展开辩论呢？如果能让它不直接帮你写论文，而是和你一起写呢？如果它能给老师做教案呢？”这可能是静态课程的终结。我的意思是，我们对于人工智能的想象一直在发散。
And by December, January we had our team in full, rapid prototyping mode. And yeah, just recently we launched Khanmigo. And so far we’re starting to titrate it out to the world, giving people access to it. But the feedback is very promising. What we’re hearing overwhelmingly from social media and the press is that they’re really happy that we’ve engaged in this and that we’re taking a safe approach where parents and teachers can monitor it. We have a moderation filter. OpenAI has also gone through great pains to make sure, that, you know, things stay appropriate. You and I have talked extensively about the math issue, and we’ve done some things that I think make it quite robust on top of the things that the model does. And the costs are coming down dramatically.
到了12月和1月，我们的团队全身心的迅速进入了原型开发模式。是的，就在最近，我们推出了Khanmigo。到目前为止，我们正开始向全世界推广，让人们有权限使用它。反馈非常好。我们从社交平台和媒体上听到的绝大多数声音，都说他们非常高兴我们参与其中，而且我们采取了一种安全的方式，让家长和老师可以监控人工智能。我们有一个审核过滤器。OpenAI还煞费苦心地确保一切都合乎规矩。关于数学问题，你和我已经进行了广泛的讨论，我们在模型本身的基础上做了一些调整，我认为这使得它变得很稳定，而且成本大大降低了。
BILL GATES: I mean, that’s really impressive.
比尔·盖茨：我想说，这真的很了不起。
SAL KHAN: Yeah, even ChatGPT isn’t bad, and then GPT-4 is dramatically better. I mean, it makes mistakes, to be clear. They both make mistakes But one of the things we realized is when you do math, if especially if I’m tutoring you, let’s say you do some work, I don’t just immediately say, "Correct, incorrect." I say, "Well, let me see this." Okay. Let me see what he did. Okay. Okay. Okay. “Yeah, yeah. Good job.” And one of the hacks. I don’t think it’s actually a hack. It’s actually a, I think, a principle we’re doing, which is we weren’t getting good results when we just asked it to decide, when it acts as a tutor, whether a student is right or wrong. But as soon as we said, you know what, construct your thought and these thoughts are private to you, write that down first and then evaluate the students’ response to your thoughts. And then say something publicly to the student, then the math improved dramatically. So it is funny. As soon as one day you think like, "Oh, this is so not like a human being." And so, and then the next year it’s like, wow, that’s kind of how we operate. We kind of need that that thought before we can talk.
萨尔·可汗：即使ChatGPT很棒，GPT-4也更棒。但说白了，它还是会犯错。两代人工智能都会犯错。我们意识到的一点是，当你做数学题时，尤其是当我辅导你时，假设你做了一些作业，我不会马上说“正确，不正确”，我会说“好吧，让我看看”。让我看看他做了什么，“做的不错，干得好”，然后重复这一过程。我不认为这是重复的枯燥工作。实际上，我认为，我们正在做的一个原则是：当我们让人工智能来做决定，让它作为一个导师决定一个学生是对是错时，我们并没有得到很好的结果。当我们决定让学生先将自己的思路私下构建并写下，然后再评估他们对这些思路的回应，最后再公开地与学生讨论，我们意识到数学成绩有了显著的提升。这种做法颇为有趣。就像有一天你会觉得，“哦，这完全不像是人类。”然而，到了第二年，我们才恍然发现，这其实与我们个体的思维方式相当契合。原来在我们展开交流之前，培养内心的那些思绪是如此重要。
BILL GATES: The way I think of it is, it’s like a human that’s not very good with context, that the math context we know is a special context of check your answer. And it’s also sometimes, even in conversation, if you get it into a mode where it’s telling jokes, with humans, we have kind of a look, or the new question is quite different. It thinks it’s supposed to just keep telling jokes, and you almost have to do a reset to get it out of this. Hey, everything is a joke-type mode. So it’s like kind of a very naive person in terms of all these different contexts we’re in. My favorite one is where it tries to Sudoku, which it can’t do. And you point it out, "Hey, that’s not a good solution. And it says, "oh, I must have mistyped,” because it’s like, where is the typewriter? You have a typewriter?
比尔·盖茨：我理解人工智能的方式是，它就像一个不太懂语境的人类。我们刚才说的那个数学的语境，是“核对答案”的一种特殊语境。有时，即使是在对话中，如果你让它进入讲笑话的模式，特别是与人交谈时，我们如果换了一种表情，或者提出了不一样的新问题，它却还认为自己应该继续讲笑话，你几乎必须重新设置，才能让它摆脱这种状态。嘿，一切都是“笑话模式”。因此，在我们所处的这些不同环境，它就像是一个非常天真无邪的人。我最喜欢的一次经历是让人工智能尝试数独，但它做不到。你对它指出，“嘿，这不是个好的解法。”它就会说，“哦，我一定是打错字了。”可是你想啊，它怎么打错字的？键盘在哪里？有打字机吗？
SAL KHAN: It gets defensive—
萨尔·可汗：它变得有防御性。
BILL GATES: It sees how humans deal with being accused of getting -- my dog ate my homework or something like that. So yeah, it’s kind of human, but in a, naïve untrained way.
比尔·盖茨：它看到了人类是怎么处理自己被责怪的情景的，做出“我的狗吃了我的作业”之类的反应。所以，是的，它有点像人类，但是还有留有一种未经过训练的“天真”。
So if we think about the next 10 years. I’m sort of back to my optimism that I had when the Gates Foundation first got in to education, that both the absolute level of learning and the gap with lower-income, minority students, that with these new tools can both close the gap and raise up the overall level of achievement.
因此，如果我们考虑未来10年，我就又回到了盖茨基金会刚涉足教育领域时的乐观状态，我认为无论是从学习能力的绝对水平方面，还是与低收入、少数群体学生之间的差距方面，有了人工智能这些新工具，我们既能缩小差距，又能提高整体成绩水平。
SAL KHAN: After the pandemic, there’s tens of billions of dollars came in from the federal government to address learning loss. Everyone looked at these decades-old studies around high-dosage tutoring and said, "Oh, we can kind of afford to do tutoring now." And so they hired a bunch of tutoring companies and this and that. And it’s not the tutoring companies’ fault.
萨尔·可汗：新冠疫情之后，美国联邦政府投入了数百亿美元来解决失学问题。每个人都看了这些几十年前做的高强度辅导研究，然后说，“哦，我们现在有能力做辅导了。”于是，他们雇了一大堆课后补习班公司，做这做那。当然，这并不是课后补习班公司的错。
But what you’re seeing now is just another example that we often see in the school system like, "Wow, this is a good idea, but we’re not really seeing it move the dial." And the retrospective people were saying was, "Well, in order for it to really work, it’s got to be connected to what the kids are doing in school. And ideally it should be happening while they’re doing it in school." And that’s almost impossible logistically to do and expensive if you wanted to do it with live tutors. But Khanmigo, that is, the tutor that we’re putting in Khan Academy, it, in the moment, can act like a fairly good human tutor.
但你现在看到的，只是我们在学校系统中经常看到的另一个例子，就像“哇，这是个好主意，但我们并没有看到它真正发挥作用”。回顾过去，人们会说，“要想让它真正发挥作用，就必须与孩子们在学校的表现联系起来。而且最好是在孩子们在学校学习的时候，就让他们用上。”从逻辑上讲，这几乎是不可能做到的，而且如果你想通过线下辅导来实现，费用也很高。但是，Khanmigo就像是我们放在可汗学院里的辅导员，在某些时候，它就能作为一个相当不错的人类辅导员。
There’s moments with it that I think would pass the Turing test, where you’d think that there’s a good human on the other side of the chat. And I think that has a good chance of driving engagement because not only can it tutor, you can ask it: why you need to learn this? Well, what do you care about? And you say, "Well, I care about this or that." It’s like, "Well, if you care about this, then this you definitely need to learn this, and here’s some other things to think about." And so it honestly answers it better than most humans would, that that is going to just drive a whole other level of engagement, a whole other level of, "Hey, a student is stuck in algebra because they have some gaps from seventh grade." That’s very hard for one teacher with 30 kids to diagnose.
我认为，它有时候甚至可以通过图灵测试，让你觉得聊天的另一端有一个很好的人。我认为这很有可能会提高参与度，它不仅可以辅导功课，你还可以问它，“我为什么要学这个？”它会说，“你关心什么呢？”你接着说，“我关心这个或那个。”它就会回答，“好吧，如果你关心这个，那么你肯定要学这些东西，还有一些其他的东西需要考虑。”因此，老实说，它比大多数人都能更好地回答问题，这将会推动另一个层面的参与，另一个层面的“嘿，一个学生被代数难住了，因为他们在七年级的时候就有一些差距”。这对于一名教着30个孩子的老师来说是很难判断出来的。
But now to be able to intelligently, with traditional tutoring interactions, say, "Hey, are you having trouble with the negative number here? Let’s review that a little bit." I think that can drive a ton of engagement. I think honestly, just feeling more connected can drive engagement. I’m actually really excited about the next phase of Khanmigo is going to be Khanmigo facilitating interactions inside of a classroom.
但现在，我们能够智能地进行传统的辅导交互，比如说，“嘿，你在这里遇到负数有困难吗？让我们稍微复习一下。”我认为这可以带来大量的参与度。说实话，我觉得只是感觉更加亲近就能提高参与度。实际上，我对Khanmigo的下一个阶段感到非常兴奋，它将在课堂内部促进交互。
BILL GATES: With a group?
比尔·盖茨：用小组的形式？
SAL KHAN: With groups. So imagine a teacher just says, "Hey, Khanmigo, take my class of 30, put them into 10 groups of three, and I want every group to do this problem. And then I want the students to talk to each other about it. And you’re the facilitator." We’ve run those types of experiments and they’re surprisingly fun where you can do that, or -- and it’s not just in math. You could do that in science. You can -- where it pushes the students. So why do you think -- how does entropy in chemistry connect to entropy in information theory or computer science? And all of these types of things and the humanities?
萨尔·可汗：用小组的形式。想象一下，老师说，“嘿，Khanmigo，把我们班的 30人三人一组分成10组，我想要每组都做这道题。然后我想要学生们互相讨论。而你就是主持人。”我们做过这类实验，出奇地有趣，不管哪个科目都可以这样做，不仅仅是数学。你可以在科学课堂中这样做。你可以在任何课堂上激励学生。那么，为什么你认为化学中的熵与信息论或计算机科学中的熵有联系？如何联系？以及人文学科和所有这类的问题？
And I do think all of these are correlated too. When students get confidence in one part of their academics, it drives all the other ones. But now a teacher can say, "Hey, Khanmigo, ask all my students to give their reflection on this issue." And immediately it can tell the teacher, "Hey" -- and this isn’t science fiction. I think this is like six months away. It can say, "Hey, this is what everyone did. Here’s some exemplars. Some of your kids tend to be confused here. This student seems a little bit disengaged." I imagine -- I mean, I think we’re going to see it next year-- while the teacher is lecturing or whatever they’re doing, if you’re confused by something they just said, you just ask the bot in real time. It’s like whispering to your friend without disrupting the classroom.
我认为所有这些也是相互关联的。当学生在学业的某一环节感到自信时，就会带动其他所有环节。但现在，老师可以说，“嘿，Khanmigo，请所有学生就这个问题发表他们的看法。”然后它就能立即告诉老师——这可不是科幻小说，我想这大概还需要六个月的时间就能做到——它可以说，“嘿，大家都是这么做的。这里有一些范例。你的一些学生往往在这里感到困惑。这个学生看起来有点走神。”我想，明年我们就能看到了，当老师在讲课或做其他事情的时候，如果你对他们刚刚说的话感到困惑，你可以实时询问人工智能机器人，就像和朋友说悄悄话一样，而不会影响课堂秩序。
But then the teacher will know, "Hey, three kids" -- Khanmigo will tell the teacher, "Hey, three kids just asked me this question. I answered it for you. They’re good now. But hey, you might want to double click on that a little bit." We have another nonprofit called Schoolhouse.World, which is about peer-to-peer tutoring. And we’re already using AI to evaluate the transcripts and give the tutors feedback on what they can do better. I could see it being a little bit of a real time, like, "Hey, you haven’t called on this student, or here’s a worked example for you." So I think it’s -- yeah, it’s going to be a wild couple of years, but hopefully positive.
但是老师会知道，“嘿，有三个孩子”——Khanmigo会告诉老师，“嘿，有三个孩子刚刚问了我这个问题。我已经回答了。他们现在没问题了。但是你也许想再深入探讨一下这个问题。”我们还有一个名为Schoolhouse.World的非营利组织，专门从事同龄人之间的辅导。我们已经在使用人工智能来评估学习记录，并为导师提供如何更好地辅导的反馈。我可以看到这可能会是一种实时的模式，比如，“嘿，你还没有点名这个学生，或者这里有一个实例供你参考。”所以我认为，未来几年会大为改变，但希望会是积极的。
BILL GATES: And one thing I always underestimated is how valuable it is for most students to have kind of a social experience, how do you create a conceptually rich but socially engaging way of talking about these math things?
比尔·盖茨：有一件事我总是低估了，那就是对于大多数学生来说，拥有一种社交的经历是多么有价值，你是如何创造一种概念丰富但社交性强的方式，来谈论这些数学问题呢？
SAL KHAN: No, 100%. Some of my best memories are sitting with friends and working on a particularly hard problem. And somebody has an epiphany.
萨尔·可汗：绝对的。我最美好的一部分回忆就是，和朋友们坐在一起研究一个特别难的问题。然后，有人顿悟了。
And so the more that we can try to replicate those things, the more that -- the model we use is it’s a tutor for every student, and it could be a teaching assistant or an army of teaching assistants for every teacher. And I think every teacher on the planet would love to have one, two, three amazing teaching assistants in that classroom that say, "Hey, let’s facilitate these breakouts. Let’s do focused interventions with different students. Let’s make them explain the math to each other."
我们越是尝试复制这些东西，我们使用的模式就越是——每个学生都有一个辅导员，每个教师都有一个助教或一支助教大军。我认为，全世界每一位教师都希望自己的课堂上能有一个、两个、三个出色的助教，他们会说，“嘿，让我们来辅助分组讨论吧。让我们对不同的学生进行重点介入。让他们互相解释数学题。”
BILL GATES: One challenge we’ve always had is that when we bring new technology into the classroom, if we don’t do it well, the teacher feels like, "Oh, you’re trying to denigrate my creativity or freedom or you’re suggesting I’m not capable on my own." And yet we all know teachers are heroic, one of the most important, hardest jobs in the world. So do you feel like we’re doing better at drawing both their input and showing that, okay, they are 100% at the center of the best solution?
比尔·盖茨：我们一直面临的一项挑战是，当我们把新技术引入教室时，如果我们做得不好，老师会觉得，“哦，你是在贬低我的创造力或自由，或者你是在暗示我不能独立完成。”然而，我们都知道教师是英雄，是世界上最重要、最艰难的职业之一。那么你觉得我们是否在更好地吸引他们的意见，并展示他们才是最佳解决方案的核心呢？
SAL KHAN: Yeah. And look, I think not only is this about making sure that everyone understands their critical role, but it’s also that one of the reasons why you have such a high attrition in the profession -- I mean, we can talk about pay and compensation, all of that. But I think the biggest thing is it can be a very lonely and a very tiring job. I mean, most of us with "desk jobs," like we don’t have to be "on" continuously.
萨尔·可汗：是的。我认为这不仅是关于每个人都了解自己的关键作用，而且也是这一行业离职率如此之高的原因之一——我是说，我们可以讨论薪酬和补偿等所有问题，但我认为最大的问题是，这可能是一份非常孤独、非常累的工作。我是说，我们大多数人都是“文职工作”，不需要一直处于“工作中”的状态。
BILL GATES: Yes.
比尔·盖茨：对。
SAL KHAN: But if you’re a teacher--
萨尔·可汗：但如果你是教师——
BILL GATES: Nobody’s trying to disrupt.
比尔·盖茨：没人会试图捣乱。
SAL KHAN: No one’s trying to disrupt or like chewing gum or looking at you. I mean, it is -- and even when we’re presenting, we’re usually presenting to people who at least pretend to be interested, right?
萨尔·可汗：没人会试图捣乱，或者嚼口香糖，或者看着你。我的意思是，即使我们在演讲时，通常也是向那些至少假装感兴趣的人演讲，对吧？
BILL GATES: They’re told to be. Yes.
比尔·盖茨：他们是被安排“感兴趣”的。对。
SAL KHAN: Exactly. They got the memo. Well, in a classroom, the kids aren’t always giving you their most attentive look. And that is so draining energy-wise.
萨尔·可汗：正是。演讲可以有套路。然而，在教室里，孩子们并不总是用最专注的眼神看你。这很耗费精力。
And so we imagine the classroom of the future, and a lot of teachers are already doing this, is make it -- make the students do most of the things most of the time, and that the teacher is the architect, is the conductor of what’s going on. And I don’t think anyone in an orchestra would think that the conductor is not an important role. The conductor is making sure that the orchestra is happening together and that everything is fitting together, that it’s controlled chaos.
因此，我们设想未来的课堂——其实很多老师已经在这样做了——就是让学生在大部分时间里做大部分事情，而老师是建筑师，是学生们正在做的事情的指挥。我不认为乐团中的任何人会认为指挥不是一个重要的角色。指挥家要确保管弦乐队齐心协力，每件事都相互配合，即便有混乱但也是可控的。
And then I think everyone benefits. The kids have more fun, they learn more, and then the teachers have more fun. instead of one teacher with 30, you should have two teachers with 60, or three teachers with 90 so that they also feel less lonely, which you can start to do if you take the lecture out of the classroom.
我想每个人都会受益。孩子们会玩得更开心，学得更多，老师们也会更开心。与其一名老师带30个学生，不如两名老师带60个学生，或者三名老师带90个学生，这样他们就不会感到孤独了，其实把课堂搬出教室，就已经可以开始这样做了。
SAL KHAN: What do you think is going to happen in AI, in education and work?
萨尔·可汗：你认为人工智能、教育和工作领域将会发生什么？
BILL GATES: Well, in the education piece, I actually think reading and writing where the software tools have not been that great. Very few students get feedback on an essay, that this could be clearer, you really skipped this piece and the reasoning. And I do think the AI will be like a great high school teacher who really marks your essay and you go back and think, okay, I need to step up there.
比尔·盖茨：在教育领域，我实际上认为阅读和写作方面，软件工具还不是很出色。很少有学生能够得到有关论文的反馈，例如“这部分可以更清晰”，“你忽略了这一点和阐述”。我确实认为人工智能将会像一个优秀的高中老师，真正评阅你的论文，然后你会回过头去思考，好的，我需要在那里提升。
The hardest question to answer is the job market. Now, we’re not going to ever have too many teachers because in the worst case, we shrink class sizes and give more attention. The demand is pretty infinite there.
最难回答的问题是关于就业市场的情况。我们不会出现教师过剩的情况，因为在最坏的情况下，我们可以缩小班级规模，给予更多的关注。在这方面的需求几乎是无限的。
I do a lot of my work in countries where the shortage of doctors and teachers is so acute that the idea of, okay, the AI is too good. We don’t really run into that. But the job market, I think that one, it’s very hard to predict how it’ll shift things. I don’t think students should feel like, okay, I need to learn less, you know. Like I don’t need to multiply because computers were so good at multiplication. The new areas of job demand and how we shape this is going to be fascinating to see.
我在一些医生和教师严重短缺的国家工作，以至于“好吧，人工智能太优秀了”这个想法并没有真正出现。但是关于就业市场，我认为这个问题很难预测会如何改变局势。我不认为学生应该感觉，“好吧，我不用学这么多”，“我不需要学习乘法，因为计算机在乘法方面表现得非常出色”。新的就业需求领域以及我们如何塑造这一切将会是非常有趣的观察。
SAL KHAN: If you were to advise a parent or a student who’s, let’s say -- a teenager is figuring out what to do with their life. Given everything we talked about AI, job market, what would you tell them?
萨尔·可汗：如果让你给家长或学生提建议，比方说，给一个十几岁、正在考虑如何度过自己的一生的青少年提意见。考虑到我们谈到的人工智能、就业市场，你会对他们说些什么？
BILL GATES: It’s great if you learn enough that you find something that’s particularly fascinating to you. I have an orientation towards the sciences. I still think, you know, helping these AI things be better, we need that. The climate work we need is very, very scientifically intense.
比尔·盖茨：如果你能学到足够多的知识，找到特别吸引你的东西，那就再好不过了。我倾向于科学。我仍然认为，你知道，帮助人工智能变得更好，这是我们所需要的。我们需要的气候工作也非常非常具有科学性。
So anything in medicine, whether I have one child who wants to political policy, including health care, I have one who’s going to be a doctor, I have one who wants to be the CEO of the hospital. So all of them can contribute in very different ways. And what they pick kind of matches the differences in what they enjoy, what they’re really good at. I would love it if some really smart people would go into politics. I know that’s not attractive, but I think we need a new generation of science literate and reaching across the divide. We have God knows, young people better come in and help us out there.
还有，医药行业的任何工作，无论我的孩子想从事政治政策工作还是别的什么，包括医疗保健在内，我的一个孩子想成为一名医生，另一个孩子想成为医院的首席执行官，他们都能在医学领域做出不同的贡献。他们所选的专业也与他们的兴趣爱好、真正擅长的领域相吻合。我很希望一些真正聪明的人能够从政。我知道政治并不吸引人，但我认为我们需要科学素养高的新一代来跨越鸿沟。我们必须承认，最好有年轻人参与进来，帮助我们解决问题。
SAL KHAN: So, Bill, What teachers really pop out in your in your mind that really affected you?
萨尔·可汗：那么，比尔，你心目中真正影响你的老师有哪些？
BILL GATES: Well, early on in math, I was kind of lazy. And a teacher in eighth grade said, "How come you’re so lazy? You could be really good at this." And I said, "But we’re not doing anything interesting," he would give me books to read and help really push me quite a bit. It made a huge difference that he sort of thought I was wasting my time. It changed my whole view of education -- that I kind of had this view that the less effort you put in, the cooler you were.
比尔·盖茨：早年间在数学上我比较犯懒。八年级的时候有个老师说，“你怎么这么懒？你可能真的很擅长这个。”我说，“但我们没有做任何有趣的事情。”他会给我一些书让我读，极大地激励了我。他认为我是在虚度光阴，这对我的影响很大。这改变了我对教育的看法——我曾经有种观点：你付出的努力越少，你就越酷。
SAL KHAN: That’s right, very good.
萨尔·可汗：改变的不错。
BILL GATES: Do you have a particular teacher that helped motivate you?
比尔·盖茨：有没有哪位老师帮助和激励过你？
SAL KHAN: I have several that probably 3 or 4 that pop in my mind. There’s a second grade. Ms. Krauss and Ms. Roussel. It was kind of this enrichment gifted program. They were the first teachers that really said, "Hey, what are you interested in?" And that was the first time I experienced personalized education. Jefferson Parish School System in Louisiana. I’ve got to give credit. It was a really great experience.
萨尔·可汗：我有几个，大概有三四个，在我脑海中闪现。二年级的克劳斯女士和鲁塞尔女士。那是一门超前的课程。她们是第一个真正对我说“嘿，你对什么感兴趣？”的老师。那是我第一次体验个性化教育。路易斯安那州杰斐逊教区学校系统。我得给他们点赞，那是一次非常棒的经历。
Then I remember Ms. Ellis in fifth grade, she ran her fifth grade social studies class like what I now know is a college seminar. She would just peel an orange and just ask us questions. And I used to look -- I would look forward to it.
我还记得五年级时的埃利斯老师，她把五年级的社会研究课上得像大学研讨会。她会剥一个橘子，然后问我们问题。我那时很期待上她的课。
And then I also. Dr. Harris Antonia, when I was in high school, I took courses at the University of New Orleans, which was the local college there. And he was my differential equations teacher. And when he found out that I didn’t have a computer at home, he’s like, "Well, you need a computer." And so he got me a research job at the University of New Orleans when I was 15 years old. And that’s the first time I could like, I really got to work with real computers. And if I didn’t have that experience, I don’t know what would have happened after that.
然后我也感谢哈里斯·安东尼亚博士，当我还在读高中时，我在新奥尔良大学选修了课程，那是当地的一所大学。他是我的微分方程老师。当他发现我家里没有电脑时，他就说，“你需要一台电脑。”于是他帮我在新奥尔良大学找了份研究工作，那时我才15岁，那是我第一次真正接触到电脑用电脑工作。如果没有那次经历，我不知道以后会怎样。
BILL GATES: If you had one magic wish to master a subject without any studying, which would you choose?
比尔·盖茨：如果你有魔法，不用学习就能掌握一门学科，你会选哪个？
SAL KHAN: For one magic wish, to master a subject. I would say it would either be quantum physics or piano.
萨尔·可汗：用一个魔法愿望去掌握一门学科的话。我会选择量子物理学或钢琴。
BILL GATES: I’m embarrassed that even though I know all these computer languages, and I took Latin and Greek, I don’t speak any real languages other than English, so maybe if it was easy to learn and I could just use my wish on it, I might choose Chinese because I do think helping China and the US get along is going to be pretty important.
比尔·盖茨：我很惭愧，尽管我了解所有这些计算机语言，也学过拉丁语和希腊语，但除了英语，我并没有真正掌握其他的语言，所以也许如果能够轻松学习并且我可以用我的一个愿望实现，我可能会选择学习中文，因为我确实认为帮助中美两国相互和平相处非常重要。
[music transition]
【音乐过渡】
BILL GATES: So I said, before you came, if you had a record that you wanted to bring, to please share it with me.
比尔·盖茨：我之前说，在你来之前，如果你有想带来的音乐专辑，请和我分享一下。
SAL KHAN: Yeah. So, what we’re going to play is Bob Marley’s Redemption Song, which is, as you mentioned, my high school rock star days, Redemption Song was one of the first songs that I learned on guitar. It always spoke to me. It’s about bondage of many kinds, both physical and mental bondage, and kind of breaking free of it. And yeah, so I’ll play it.
萨尔·可汗：是的，我们要播放的是鲍勃·马利的《救赎之歌》（Redemption Song），正如你提到的，在我高中的摇滚明星时代，《救赎之歌》是我用吉他学会的第一首歌之一。我对这首歌很有感触。这首歌讲述了各种束缚，包括身体和精神上的束缚，以及如何挣脱束缚。我要播放这首歌。
BILL GATES: Cool. [A bit of "Redemption Song" plays]
比尔·盖茨：太酷了。【《救赎之歌》播放中】
BILL GATES (while music plays): So great.
比尔·盖茨（音乐播放中）：很棒。
BILL GATES (as it’s almost over): This is just a classic.
比尔·盖茨（音乐即将结束）：太经典了。
[music transition]
【音乐过渡】
BILL GATES: So, if you do a web search on Sal Khan, you might get some of this guy. So do you ever get confused with Salman Khan?
比尔·盖茨：如果你在网上搜索萨尔·可汗，你可能会找到这个人（萨尔曼·汗）的一些资料。你会不会经常被误认为是萨尔曼·汗呢？
SAL KHAN: I do. In fact, in the early days of Khan Academy, I got letters from some of his fans saying I’ve always been in love with you. And now I didn’t know you could do math, and all that. And it’s funny because, you know, us South Asians like a good kind of, you know, cheesy thing. So when I went to India in 2015, we had a live, on like national television, interview between the two of us.
萨尔·可汗：会。事实上，在可汗学院成立之初，我收到过他的一些粉丝写给我的信，说我一直都很喜欢你，我不知道你还擅长数学，诸如此类。这很有趣，你知道，我们南亚人喜欢那种有点俗气的东西。2015年我去印度的时候，我们俩在国家电视台进行了现场采访。
BILL GATES: Oh, you’re kidding.
比尔·盖茨：你一定是在开玩笑。
SAL KHAN: Just by virtue of us having the same name. But I do watch more Bollywood movies than folks suspect.
萨尔·可汗：仅仅因为我们有相同的名字。但实际上我看的宝莱坞电影比人们想象的要多。
BILL GATES: Uh-oh.
比尔·盖茨：哇哦。
SAL KHAN: My wife grew up in Pakistan, so people think that she made me watch the Bollywood movies. But it’s usually -- it’s actually the other way around. I’m the one that made her watch the Bollywood. So I was very aware of him. So it was kind of a fun thing to be in the same room and share the same name.
萨尔·可汗：我妻子在巴基斯坦长大，人们以为是她让我看宝莱坞电影的。但恰恰相反，是我让她看宝莱坞电影的。我很了解萨尔曼·汗。和他一起参加同一个节目，与他同名同姓是件很有趣的事。
BILL GATES: Do you watch them in Hindi or English?
比尔·盖茨：你用印地语还是英语看？
SAL KHAN: I can understand Hindi, which I have no business understanding. My family, our mother tongue is Bengali.
萨尔·可汗：我能听懂印地语，但我其实原本不应该听得懂。我们家的母语是孟加拉语。
BILL GATES: Oh, Bengali.
比尔·盖茨：哦，孟加拉语。
SAL KHAN: Yeah.
萨尔·可汗：对。
BILL GATES: Oh, wow. And your wife?
比尔·盖茨：哇，那你妻子呢？
SAL KHAN: My wife’s mother tongue, they’re originally Gujarati, but they -- she spoke Urdu growing up in Pakistan. But I learned Hindi mainly hearing my mom gossip on the phone when I was growing up. And I’m like, "Oh," and in Bollywood movies, that’s my India now. Like a little bit Hindi and Urdu and spoken is almost the same thing. So I know enough to get by.
萨尔·可汗：我妻子的母语其实是古吉拉特语，但他们在巴基斯坦长大时说的是乌尔都语。我主要是通过在我小时候听我妈妈在电话里闲聊和看宝莱坞电影中学会印地语的。印地语和乌尔都语的口音几乎是一样的，这样一来我就懂得多了。
BILL GATES: You and I both want education to be a lot better and really for all types of students. it’s an exciting time, and it seems like you’ve got as much energy for Khan Academy today as you did when it first got started.
比尔·盖茨：你我都希望教育能变得更好，真正为各类学生服务。这是一个令人振奋的时代，看来你现在对可汗学院的热情依然不减当年。
SAL KHAN: Yeah, I’ve always run optimistic and I’ve always had reasonable amount of energy. But yeah, I’ve told the team, like what’s about to happen in the next few years. It feels like we’re in the middle of a science fiction book and hopefully it’ll be all for good. And I’m pretty hopeful.
萨尔·可汗：是的，我一直都充满乐观和精力充沛。我曾经和我的团队聊过接下来的几年里将会发生什么。我感觉我们像置身于一本科幻小说的故事情节中，希望这一切都会是积极的。我对此满怀希望。
BILL GATES: Well, thanks for coming down. And thanks for being on a learning journey with me and in a cause that we both believe in.
比尔·盖茨：感谢你参加我的节目。也谢谢你和我一起踏上学习之旅，投身于我们共同坚信的事业。
SAL KHAN: Thank you. Hope to have, what is it, "unconfused" you a little bit.
萨尔·可汗：谢谢你。希望我让你稍微摆脱了一点困惑。
BILL GATES: Yeah, yeah definitely.
比尔·盖茨：是的，当然。
[MUSIC]
【音乐】
BILL GATES: Unconfuse me is a production of the Gates Notes. Special thanks to my guest today, Sal Khan.
比尔·盖茨：《给自己解惑》由盖茨笔记出品。特别感谢今天的嘉宾，萨尔·可汗。
[MUSIC ENDS]
【音乐停止】
SHOW TAG:
BILL GATES: No, I’ve never been mistaken for Salman Khan. [laughter, as we fade out –]
节目花絮：
比尔·盖茨：我倒没有，从来没有人把我错认成萨尔曼·汗。【笑声，人物淡出】